Dr. Anthony J.V. Obinna,
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Prof. Chinua Achebe
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Archbishop AJV Obinna
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the Catholic Archbishop of Owerri, is one of Africa’s
foremost theologians and scholars. Born on June 26, 1946
in Emekuku (near Owerri), and educated at St. Peter
Claver Seminary, Okpala (near Aba),
and Bigard Memorial Seminary, he was ordained a Roman Catholic priest on April 19, 1972. Obinna
graduated with First Class Honours in Divinity, from the Bigard Memorial Seminary, an affiliate of the Pontifical
Urban University, Rome. He left
for Rome for a Masters Degree in Theology, and then for the United States for another Masters in Religious Studies,
concentrating on Religion and Culture, and then a PhD in Education and Theology.
A former lecturer in the Religious Studies Department of the Alvan Ikoku College of Education, Owerri,
Archbishop Obinna is the current Chair of the Education Committee of the Catholic Bishop’s Conference of Nigeria
(CBCN). He was ordained a Bishop on September 4, 1993,
and became the first Archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Owerri when it was created in 1994.
In this interview with UGOCHUKWU EJINKEONYE, Archbishop Obinna canvasses
an attitudinal change, which he hopes will help steer Nigeria out of its present political, moral, and economic
descent, and reroute it to the path of progress and lasting development.
About
Ugochukwu Ejinkeonye
Ugochukwu Ejinkeonye is
a Columnist and Member, Editorial Board, Independent Newspapers, Lagos.
THE INTERVIEW
Morality, Religion And The State
Q. Your Grace, do you
think we can in all honesty say that we have freedom of worship in Nigeria today?
A. Well, constitutionally there is freedom of worship. So, to some extent, it is possible to say:
yes,
Nigerians worship as they choose. But we have had problems in certain parts of our country, where people were prevented
from worshipping, as they desire. There have been attempts to muzzle Christians in some parts of the country, and
that goes to show that the freedom of worship enshrined in the constitution is not given its full play. In the
more Christian-dominated areas, I believe that there is no prevention of anybody from being a Moslem, from worshipping
God. But in some areas of our country, there have been churches that were bulldozed, and land allocations have
been refused to Christian worshippers.
Given the pluralistic nature of our society, we cannot force everybody to become either
Christian or Moslem. So, what this calls for is openness of mind, accommodation and tolerance so that people are
free to worship as they wish. Of course, freedom of religion cannot be interpreted in an anti-human way. If a religion
teaches people to kill either members of the same religion or non-members, the laws of the land that forbids murder
must be respected. To kill in the name of God is outrageous murder; whether a person kills in the name of Christ
or in the name of Mohammed, or even in the name of the Pope, it must be clear that any killing of a human being
is outrageous in the sight of God. You cannot steal in the name of God or Allah. Our freedom of worship does not
give us the leeway to do what we like in the name of religion. Religion has to be practiced with responsibility.
It ought, also, to be accountable; in theory, it may claim to be peaceful, but in practice the record can be bloody
and terrible.
Q. What should be the relationship between religion and the state?
A. Religion, with its structures,
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Archbishop AJV Obinna of Oweri during the interview
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constitutes an institution in the society, the same way the state with its own structures constitutes another institution.
We have here two very important units with clearly defined roles. But since those who come into religion belong
to every strata of society, including the government, it is expected that they should let the moral principles
derived from their religion govern their attitude to work.
There is absolutely no need for the state and religion to merge. If the governor or
commissioner is a Christian or Moslem, he’s not expected to turn his office into a mosque or church. The state
is a public apparatus. What one is expected to do is to infuse the passion for truth, justice and fair play imbibed
from one’s religion into governance. Whether he is at the Legislative or Executive arm of government, such a person
should ensure that what is legislated or executed are right and just. The same thing applies to those at the Judiciary.
But trouble ensues when a governor or president goes ahead to plant his or her religious
leader at the seat of power, and state apparatus suddenly assumes the nature of a religious system. Sometimes,
religion can be politicized and manipulated. And so you get palace clergymen who only pray according to the intentions
of the leader. And this may create incidences of conflict for the state and religion, especially in a situation
where a particular priest, pastor or bishop in a state may become too friendly with the governor or the president
as to now subject his religious work to government authority. One way or the other, the religious leader can capitulate,
become a tool and slave to government. But if the religious leader is the prophetic type, his calling will even
compel him to periodically critique the government so as to rouse the conscience of public officers to the expectation
of the people towards them.
What is required is for religion and the state to complement each other. We need religious people to pray and maintain
the banner of righteousness. We also need the government to use the resources of the nation in an upstanding way.
So, if God is the owner of both religion and government, He would expect that uprightness should reign in both
very vital segments of the society.
Q. In his widely quoted pre-conclave homily, the head of the Roman Catholic Church,
Pope Benedict VXI (then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger), came down hard on what he called the “dictatorship of relativism.”
Were you worried by the harsh reactions of the Western press to that sermon?
A. No, I wasn’t surprised at all, because I’m very familiar with the Western world, having lived in
Europe and America. I have also studied Western culture to
the point of exhaustion. There are two sides to Western culture. One is underscored by the Greek world of rationalism,
of reason, which in its more refined dimension has ended up as naturalism and materialism that excludes the spiritual
element in the long run.
But there is also the other side of Western culture; built up from the religious side,
particularly from Israel -- Moses to Christ-- down to the apostles that gave birth to Christianity. So, in the
Western world, we have these two forces; the religious force on the one hand, and the naturalist and rational forces
on the other hand. Those who have immersed themselves in pure naturalism and rationalism perceive everything as
relative. But those who cling to the Christian tradition respect the human being and creation as gifts of God.
They want to bring divine principles to rule human life.
So, if you understand this background, you can then appreciate the reaction of the
Western Press -- which is largely secularistic, atheistic, anti-Christ, anti-God. And anybody trying to remind
them of God is often attacked. For them, the Pope is touching on what has become a sensitive point. So, I’m not
surprised. You can even see that in the Anglican community, there is now a split between the African Anglicans
and the Western or American Anglicans, because a number of the Anglicans have followed the way of naturalism, homosexuality,
lesbianism and anything goes.
So, this dictatorship of relativism is what the Western media is trying to spread
across the world. But the Pope, even though he comes from the Western world, has imbibed a different kind of orientation,
and now propagates a healthier tradition, the tradition of God. And to that tradition I belong, even though I am
very familiar with the Western secular world.
Q. Are you worried
by the growing culture of indecent and even weird dressing among many Nigerians, especially, the youth? Men are
even perforating their ears, noses and all that? What do you think accounts for this penchant to copy only the worst, and the most horrible, from
the Western world?
A. Well, we haven’t
quite fully recovered from the old indoctrination that everything from Europe or America is the best. Nigerians would have done better, but for the fact that we had people
who were not properly educated leading us, and putting undue emphasis on everything Western. But when you study
the Western culture as a real scholar, like some of us have done, you would discover that there is really nothing
to get excited about. I have seen Europe
and America, seen the white man, black man, yellow man, and all that. I have rediscovered myself.
Indeed, when you have not rediscovered yourself, you will continue to look up to the Western world to define yourself.
That’s why I define myself much more locally. I’ve found joy, learning and speaking the Igbo language. And that
is why, in part, I started the Odenigbo Lecture Series.
The lecture series are conducted in my
Igbo language; that every one in the village can understand. And I have discovered that it gives my people a great
sense of joy, because I am helping them rediscover their identity, and to know that Igbo language is as good as
English, French or any other, and never a mark of stupidity if you speak only Igbo. That there are very brilliant
people who speak only Igbo because, after all, it was through the natural talents of farmers, fishermen and traders
who never went to school, and what they cultivated, that their children were able to become trained as engineers
and scientists. Indeed, many children of farmers, wine-tappers and wrestlers, have turned out to be excellent role
models, because it is the practical knowledge of our people that laid the foundation for further intellectual or
mental development of the later generation.
So, until we become re-orientated with and appreciative of the things around us, we
shall always run after the white man. Now, although the white man has accomplished a great many good things, his
society is far from perfect. Much of the present preoccupations of Western society do not seem to give its people
joy. So, they end up being confused, and unhappy, and that is what some our people are running after.
So, I think it’s a matter of mis-education and misguidance by people who don’t have
real values. They are living by what we call popular values; popular culture. Cars, dresses, shoes and what they
can wear on their eyes and noses are more important to them. At a time, our children didn’t wear clothes until
a certain age; yet it did not create any moral confusion. Now, people are exhibiting thighs and breasts when decency
demands that they should cover them up.
I used to tell my students when I was lecturing at Alvan Ikoku College of Education,
Owerri that instead of retouching their brain, all they do is retouch their hair! So, we are no longer touching
up the brain for higher things. It is unfortunate. We have shifted emphasis to less-inspiring and unedifying habits.
Q. Harmful practices
like prostitution, cultism, robbery and violence are on the rise, especially among young people, and it does seem
that efforts to combat this are progressively sabotaged by television. How do we come out of this?
Well, this is an area
where the government of our country with their policies have proved unhelpful, and shown that they don’t understand
the psychology of the young. They are unaware that young people’s minds can be destroyed and distorted as early
as the age of ten. Because some of our leaders have also bought into these superficial, artificial values, they
have no understanding of the need for screening, and instead allow the airing of unsuitable television content
at periods of the day when children can watch them. And these unscrupulous adults may not even be around to combat
the fallout of these experiences when the children are now tempted to practice what they picked up from the videos
they watch.
So, it requires a leadership
that understands the sensitivity and importance of forming children with important values, even before they are
ten and twelve years. Because, at that point, children are immensely impressionable. We had to make a public statement last week about the introduction of Sex Education
in schools, which I personally believe is corrupting to the children. These people are just importing Western values,
and so, our women, thanks be
to God, have risen. They have gone to the Federal Ministry of Education to protest against this corrupting influence.
But the way to effectively fight it is to provide alternative programmes, especially on television, that will give
more positive orientation to our children, and I think licenses should be given to responsible religious bodies
to do this.
You know the government has been very reluctant to give out licenses to religious
bodies. Of course, it is true that some of the religious bodies have proved to be part of the destroyers of the
society, but government could exercise the right to restrict, and not completely ban religious bodies like ours. I, for one, wouldn’t want to present a
programme that will distort the minds of the people. I am an educationist, a religionist and social leader. And
I am concerned about the future of the children. So, if government would open up the channels to allow more responsible
television programming by religious bodies with excellent educational track records, we can turn the tide.
When I switch on the television today, what do I see? Murder, bloodshed, violence,
immorality…hey! So, an alternative to this is a more positive, healthy approach that does not promote violence,
immorality, and seduction. That’s the only way.
Q. You don’t think
that government should introduce some form of censorship, as in the past, and even extend it to the pornographic
magazines that fill our newsstands these days?
A. As I said earlier, if we have leaders
who are concerned about the future of this nation, a lot of things will be done right. It is my observation that
the Western world is in a state of confusion. And because we have also inherited aspects of Western culture, we
have also inherited the confusion that comes with it. But if we had a more spiritual, moral, serious and sensitive
leadership in this country, it would address these issues. And the people will share that sense of responsibility,
you know, to restrict the kind of things that they read and watch, in order to promote a more positive culture. Indeed, there is a need for censorship of what we
take in, and the earlier the relevant authorities and bodies respond adequately to this challenge, the better for
our society.
Q. The rate at which
HIV/AIDS is spreading is alarming. But some of us are seriously questioning the intentions behind campaigns deployed
to combat it that seem, in actual fact, to aid in the erosion of the moral foundation of our society. When hopefully
a vaccine is found and the scourge is over, how will the moral reclamation of society begin?
A. Well, I have spoken to various audiences
in the church and outside about this matter of promiscuity, immorality and diseases. Of course, there is human
weakness all over the world, and when people indulge their weaknesses, they are vulnerable to contracting diseases
one way or the other. As you rightly pointed out, the manner the situation is being handled cannot lead to the
discipline that should have been established in the first place. Rather when you say: well people are bound to
have sex, so make it easy for them, give them condoms, give them contraceptives, human beings being what they are
would sometimes not want the condoms, the contraceptives, or even worse, these things may fail. Indeed, it has
to be clear that those bringing in contraceptives and condoms might just want to promote promiscuity simply to
provide a market for these products.
But I also want everyone
to note that Western societies have a low birth rate, and there is the fear that Africans might continue to multiply,
and prove to be a global force to contend with like China has proved. So, there is a certain fear about the black populace. Anything to stop
the Africans, create more confusion, so that our stable families would go the way of other societies is welcome.
So, there is a certain ideological war in it. That is why our government needs to be more serious.
Thanks be to God that the Moslems, as well, joined in the visit to the Federal Ministry of Education to protest
against the promotion of immorality. Imagine exposing children of nine and ten years to ideas about homosexuality,
masturbation, lesbianism and how to enjoy sex. Instead of raising their ideals they fill them with pernicious knowledge
which would awake in them emotions they are incapable of handling.
So, it requires courage
to go against the current. We have to teach people that it is possible to be chaste. It is possible to be self-controlled.
If you can be self-controlled for one day, you can as well be for one month. If you can be controlled for a month,
you can as well do it for one year or two years. This is important, so we can get healthy marriages, that will
not produce contaminated, sick children, and those that will be weak specimens. So, our mission is to promote chastity,
to call also to conversion those who have made mistakes.
God doesn’t want the loss of anyone. He
says He’s not interested in the death of the sinner but that the sinner should repent and live. But the trouble
comes when we begin to declare by words or actions that there is no more sin. No, we must take the necessary precautions
ourselves so that we don’t make the situation worse. It is because we recognize our weakness as human beings that
we cling to Christ and the Word of God. My help is in the name of the Lord who made heaven and earth. The nearer
I am to God, the stronger I am. But if a person becomes careless and lives only with people who are promiscuous,
who are immoral, even if he was strong, he may begin to decay and degenerate.
Corruption and Political Ineptitude
Q.
Not too long ago, the Berlin-based Transparency International (TI) awarded Nigeria the number three position in the corruption index globally. (Nigeria is now in the sixth position) Did you celebrate it?
A. Well, I don’t really give too much attention
to the placement of Nigeria with regard to corruption. I know that America is corrupt, Europe is also corrupt. My worry is that our own people collude with others to rip us off.
These foreigners are too eager to collude with our people, because they believe we have so much money stolen from
Nigeria, and stashed in either Switzerland or New York or other Western nations. So, when you
say Nigerians are corrupt, look very well, and you will see that there are always some white people out there helping
them to perpetrate the corruption. So, I refuse to take such categorizations from them.
In fact some years ago, while I was in Washington, just at the time I was appointed bishop, I was trying to get some help for a project
in my archdiocese. When I mentioned it to some white man in a certain Foundation, he said: well we would have loved to help you, but
your country is so corrupt.
I became very angry. I said: Gentleman, if we start tracing the roots of corruption in my country, you will be
implicated, because colonialism, including its neo reconstruction, is a massive act of fraud; yes, massive act
of corruption imposed on our people. But, of course, that doesn’t exonerate us from our collusion. But the world
is such, nowadays, that there is a whole syndicate, a huge collaboration, that it is almost impossible to carry
out corruption all alone, in one’s own country.
There are, however,
people who are working to make things worse for us in Nigeria. Nigeria has great potential. In the past, Nigeria was rated so high in the world that wherever
her citizens walked, in the 50s, 60s, or even in the early 70s, they were welcomed as great minds and great workers.
That’s why many received scholarships from international organizations and institutions in the past. The politicians
and the military have not been kind to us; they have led us into a tragic quagmire. It is therefore the issue of
trying to move ahead that we are confronted with. Other countries have also been where we are today, however they
worked hard to transcend it. We are faced with what is particularly a human condition, and therefore can be changed.
Q. Do you think the
present government is helping to bring about the desired change?
A. Well, this present government is a kind
of conundrum. It is not a straightforward arrow. It is mixed music, with several tunes. We are still looking forward.
The rhetoric is good, the language is correct; but the action is dubious. Nothing is transparent, beginning with
the elections. We had hoped that, after late Gen. Sani Abacha and Gen. Abdulsalami Abubakar, we would have been
able to begin on a clean slate; but, how the country ended up under a military man, I still can’t explain. Indeed,
I believe that this is part of the problem we are still facing. However, certain credit was given to the present leadership,
initially. And this is because, we had believed that under a President who had experienced imprisonment, there
would have been a revolutionary change. Unfortunately, this did not happen. Under this current leadership, the
same problems have continued to emerge. The expectation had been that a realistic action-plan would have been put
in place, which would, much more than EFCC, ICPC and other agencies, help us track the porous ways through which
Nigeria is losing its money.
So, although the leadership has spoken a very good language, we still seem to be where
we were. I think it was Marx who said: “well the philosophers have interpreted the situation correctly, but the
important thing is to change it…”
Q. Is there something
about the Nigerian environment that provides incentive for cutting corners? The same Nigerian who endeavours to
keep rules in other countries would be quick to try and beat the system here?
A. Yes, here, we have what is called the
“big man syndrome.” Some people consider themselves ten or even hundred times more important than the rest. But
I know that in spite of my being a Bishop, I’m just a commoner, my blood is as common as any other blood. There
is nothing like royal blood. It’s the same ordinary
blood that flows in me that flows in the president or governor or traditional ruler. So, there is an illusion about
our personalities that makes some of us unable to accept ourselves as ordinary people; maybe, because of the titles
we have or the position we occupy in society. And some people now define themselves more in terms of their titles,
qualifications or ranks, wanting to bulldoze their way through society, and encourage others to do so as well.
So, it’s a kind of
psychic disease akin to pomposity, which I call pomposis. You may not find it in the dictionary but it has to do with excessive obsession with pomp and
pageantry. Such a person comes across as an inflated balloon. Every other person has to give way when a “big man”
is passing. And if you delay, his men could push you into the gutter.
Q. But why do Nigerians
manifest such behaviour only when they are in Nigeria? They don’t misbehave even in Ghana, for instance.
A. No, they cannot, because the people there
have deflated themselves. Even in America or Europe,
I mean the president is just ordinary Mr. President.
Q. Even governors,
in some countries, use the same buses as regular people as they go to work in the morning.
A. Well, in Nigeria, what appears more important is the kind
of voluminous clothing that we encumber ourselves with. We want to be as big as the hippopotamus. And we think
that when we are like that, other people in the world become like mosquitoes before us. So, it’s a problem of the
psyche. It’s a spiritual, moral and intellectual decline. And unless you and I deflate ourselves, we cannot relate
on a simple ground with the rest of humanity. So, Nigeria has a very big disease, the disease of pomposis.
Q. What is your message
to Nigerians on corruption?
A. I cannot give any message to Nigerians
in general. I can only give a message to the leaders, because the people are either good or bad followers depending, to a large extent, on who is
leading them. So, my message is not for the poor man who has reached a point of frustration –I can only sympathize
with him, and tell him to be patient, that things will certainly get better.
My message is more
for the leaders, and I am telling them to deflate themselves, and realize that they are ordinary mortals like every
other person. The poor people they despise today may be the ones to carry their corpses tomorrow; so, I am pleading
with them, and praying that the Lord touches their minds and hearts. Our elites must realize that until they destroy
this sense of elitism, and tell themselves that even Christ Himself came into this life to identify with the lowliest
human being, nothing can change for the better.
So, my challenge is
to the leaders is this: Let us commit class suicide. I am ready to commit class suicide any time. I am trying everyday, to ensure I don’t
feel that I am more important than others, because I happen to be an Archbishop. It’s just a service that I am
rendering; I know that somebody else can as well do it, even better than I can. Why then should I hold on to the
illusion that I am the most important man in the land?
On Nigeria
