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Prof.
Aliu Babatunde Fafunwa –
Prof. Chinua Achebe
Prof. Babatunde Fafunwa
Professor Fafunwa
received his B.Sc (Magna Cum Laude) in Social Science and English (salutatorian) from Between June 1951
and June 1952, Professor Fafunwa served as the Area
Specialist United Nations
Secretariat, New York Division of Trusteeship and non self governing Territorial, under the directorship of the
late African-American Noble Laureate Dr. Ralph Bunche. During this time he also worked as the Assistant Nigerian Liaison Officer,
for Professor Fafunwa
returned to Later,
Professor Fafunwa joined the From UNN, he proceeded
to the University of Ife - now Obafemi Awolowo University (OAU) - as professor of Education and Head of Department
of Education; Director of the Institute of Education and Dean, Faculty of Education University of Ife, 1967-1975;
Senate Representative, University of Ife provisional council, 1967 to 1970; Chairman, committee of Deans, 1967
to 1969; Acting Vice Chancellor, University of Ife, Summer, 1967 and 1970; member interim National University Commission,
1968 to 1972; Deputy Vice Chancellor, university of Ife, 1970 to 1972; member Ibadan university council 1972 to
1975; member, Board of Directors, International Council on Education for Teaching (ICET), Washington, D.C, 1972
to 1975;
and member, Editorial Advisory
Board, Teachers College Record, Teachers College, Columbia, University, New York, U.S.A., 1973 to 1984. Professor Fafunwa’s published articles
Prof. Babatunde Fafunwa
Professor
Fafunwa has received numerous awards and honours including the following: Founders day special Honours Citation
for scholastic performance, New York university, 1956; Franklin Book Award for outstanding contribution to Educational
Development, New York City, 1973; Medal for Distinguished Service in Education, Teachers College, Columbia University,
New York, 1973; Distinguished MUCIA (Midwestern Universities Consortium) visiting professorship to Michigan State,
Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota and Wisconsin Universities, 1972 to 1973; and Distinguished fellow, International
council on Education for Teaching, Washington, D.C; 1983. He
has received honourary degrees from the Professor
Fafunwa was awarded the Nigerian National Merit Award, in 1989; and was received the CON in December 2002. About
Toluwanimi Olujimi
Toluwanimi Olujimi
is a ABOUT OKEY NDIBE Okey Ndibe is an associate Professor of Literature at Simon’s Rock of Bard
College in Great Barrington, MA, USA. He was born in THE
INTERVIEW
Q: Sir, how do you respond to the phenomenon of "godfatherism"
in Nigerian politics? Godfatherism seems to be a new phenomenon in Nigerian
politics, to the best of my knowledge. Indeed it evolved from an old Nigerian practice whereby the man or woman
who contributed the most in financial terms to the formation of a new club, society or association takes it over
as his or her property, thus giving credence to the saying that he who pays the piper dictates the tune.
This political phenomenon will prevail for as long as the majority
of our people are illiterate. Q: I strongly believe that if there is to be only one amendment
of the constitution, it should be the removal of the immunity clause. To me, this is the most urgent and the
most desirable action. Q: Ex-military ruler Ibrahim Babangida recently indicated
his desire to run for the presidency. Does he represent the kind of leader Nigerians need in 2007 or beyond? The electorate will decide as to whom they want.
It is said that a country deserves the government it votes for. General Ibrahim Babangida has a right to contest
an election as a Nigerian as there is no rule that disqualifies all army generals, colonels, admirals or potential
candidates with big ears or one leg! Q:
Sir, eminent scholars such as Professors Bolanle Awe, Grace Alele-Williams, and Ade Ajayi [guests of the Achebe
Foundation] all believe that the blame for A: I agree…the history of poor leadership in
Jomo Kenyatta is
another example of a great leader, though with limited success. And I guess the most revered of great African leaders
is Nelson Mandela who led his people out of the ‘shackles’ of Apartheid, and still forged reconciliation between
the races. He had a clear and great vision for I wish I could say
the same for Nigerian leadership. In this country, even when a leader has focus, he often has to contend with a
great many adversaries intent on derailing his plans. So, this has been the problem – not so much a lack of ideas
as a lack of execution and follow through. It is important also to note that Q: How does apathetic
followership affect the quality of leaders we have produced? A: My contention
is that in a system that works, the polity can keep the elected officials in check and accountable to the people
that empowered them. In such a system, the political aspirations of the population can only help to shape the vision
of the leaders. In the absence of such a system, however, it is difficult to talk about the ‘apathy’ of the polity.
The point is that we must aim to build systems that work, and into their framework, the insertion of checks and
balances to ensure the smooth functioning of the country on all levels. Q: The United States National Intelligence Council predicts the possibility of an 'outright collapse
of A: I’m an astute optimist; all hope is not lost.
I think we can still find a way around our myriad problems! Nation building is not easy…it takes a great deal of
patience, excellent planning and execution. The Nigerian populace, the civil society, has a responsibility to become
involved at all levels. The tendency to leave everything to the government is a carry-over from the colonial days,
fuelled by what I believe is a pathological ‘colonial
mentality.’ This mentality
- that we are helpless to do anything; that the government will do everything for us, that we are not supposed
to take initiative, just obey laws and not ask questions – was carried over from the colonial era, to the post-colonial
era, and has stifled our progress in many ways. This mentality has permeated our thinking to the extent that today,
we still talk about ‘government property…’ Q:
Interrupting…“Government property?”
A: Yes, ‘government’s property’ or more correctly,
the public sector -- is nobody’s property, and so nobody respects it. We feel that anything within the public realm
is to be treated carelessly and employed however we like. And this is because ours is not a strong, vocal, civil
society focused on its self-development… Q:
How can we develop a strong focused civil society?
A: Democracy provides the fundamental scaffolding,
or foundation, for the evolution of a strong civil society to emerge. A healthy, free press is also imperative
as is an educated, energetic polity. At the moment, Nigeria
is trying to evolve a democratic system of governance; but unless we have a dynamic and well-coordinated civil
society that produces, shapes, influences and moves public opinion -- elements that are currently absent from Nigeria’s
political machinery -- then we are really running democracy on one leg.
And when attempts are being made
to turn Q: Many, in exasperation,
often wonder if A: As I have mentioned,
nation building takes time… it will require the virtue of patience. This is not to say that we should accept mediocrity
on both a leadership and followership level, but that we should remember the old cliché: Remember that we
have succeeded, after about 35 years of military rule, in returning to the path of sanity -- democracy. We have
been able to hold two elections in the country, albeit imperfect elections with considerable difficulties, but
elections, none the less, spiced with the usual Nigerian political flare for grand – standing, elephant sized promises…
Listen; I think Q: Corruption
has long been the bane of our nation. What steps, in your opinion, can A: Kofi Annan informs us
that “corruption undermines democracy, and the rule of law leads to violations of human rights, distorts markets,
erodes the quality of life, and allows organized crime, terrorism, and other threats to human security to flourish.” Corruption has been
instrumental in disorienting us in this country; it has made us the laughing stock of the world. We have so many
good people; we have resources which should make us the envy of other nations in the world. But because of mismanagement
of resources, under-utilisation of manpower and the syndrome of ‘get rich quick,’ our country is in shambles. We
have laws that must be enforced to punish the corrupt! Q. Interjecting…For
three straight years now, Surely, there is
corruption in other countries; but why is it that Several expert bodies have outlined strategies for fighting corruption:
we must build an effective accountability system, make sure that policymakers focus their
efforts on strengthening the public sector's institutions, make sure that politicians and public employees are
held accountable for fulfilling the government's responsibilities and commitments, and ensure that ordinary politicians
and bureaucrats are more responsive to the needs of the public. In turn, we must ensure that citizens, the private
sector, the media, must be educated and empowered to increase the accountability of the public sector. Q: You allude
to the involvement of several cadres and sectors of society in this fight against corruption. Is the government
not ultimately responsible for waging this crusade? A: Good. Who is
government, I ask you, then? We all are the government! This is a very important concept that may require emphasizing…I
gave an example of this apathetic detachment earlier on as the “government property” syndrome. Fighting corruption
is something we must all take part in; not just elected public officials… Q: How, exactly,
can the average Nigerian take part in the fight against corruption? A: In many ways…in
the family, as a
Prof. Babatunde Fafunwa at an event
I believe the present
administration’s effort to tackle corruption is important, and, at the very least, the beginning of the journey
that will hopefully get us out of the forest of corruption. We all know that many people in various sectors were
and still remain nervous. There are many that are bent on derailing any effort to fight corruption in this country! Q: The time it
took to pass the Anti-Corruption Bill in the National Assembly made many cynical about the anti-corruption war.
It is still believed, in many quarters, that some of those bent on derailing the fight on corruption are, themselves,
in government… A: One remembers that the initial Anti-corruption Bill
was announced soon after the 1999 inauguration. The administration had sent a bill to the National Assembly from
their first week in office, and it took a deplorably long time to get it passed. But thank goodness, it was passed
into law! We all hailed this particular bill, although some of us did not take it too seriously. The Nigerian population
went to sleep feeling that having empowered the government it had done its part and could now fold its collective
hands and become onlookers, critics of government performance…as if the polity is not part of the government! The
generality of Nigerians, particularly the educated class among us, behave this way, rather sadly. But the Nigerian
public must see itself as part of the solution! Until the educated elite seriously become part of the solution,
we really cannot do very well as a nation. Neither can the government go very far... Q: What
do you say to the critics of the anti-corruption war who believe that it is a selective crusade? A: A lot of what has been said is that government
is selective. Here is the quandary:
If government is selective, let’s
acknowledge that it is selective…however; does that mean we should not do anything to address the problem of corruption?
I’m not in favour of a selective approach to the fight against corruption, but to say that we should therefore
forget everything is more than unacceptable to me. That is simply rubbish. We should not spare
government its faults. Let us therefore demand that it amends its errors; but at the same time, we should encourage
those in government positions where and when they move in the right direction. To achieve this, we need to develop
a strong public opinion system. Q: How does this
‘strong public opinion system’ that you refer to help us slay the monster called corruption? By galvanizing the
populace! Let us take a look at professional bodies. In this country we have a large number of
Advertise here
Q: You seem to
be suggesting, indeed, advocating, organizational activism… Yes…others have suggested this for years; highly
respected individuals like the late Beko Ransome Kuti stood for this, and so have many others. Now, let us take
a look at the medical sector…If, for instance, it is said that we have one of the highest infant mortality rate
in the world, what is the NMA [Nigerian Medical Association] doing about it? Or, that none of our universities
can compete with those of the western world, and that our libraries are very poorly stocked; what are those of
us in the academic field doing about it -- the unions, the professors, or even the students? It is a general malaise
in Q: One of Ethnicism has affected
us tremendously, and in a negative way. In my mind, ethnicism has become a national pathology. In almost every
facet of our lives, people no longer play the game according to the rules. In most business environments now, the
owners simply flood the place with their relatives and family friends. I remember I had an experience as the manager
of Employee and Public Relations in an oil company. I was in charge of recruitment. And I was bent on pursuing
this purely on merit. People expected me to bend the rules on ethnic sentiments, but I stood my ground saying to
myself that ‘if my own relatives came for a job, they would simply have to compete with the others. And I stuck
to that principle…to the extent that, in that job, there was a famous appointment that I made for management --
former Vice President, Dr. Alex Ekwueme -- I employed him as an engineer! People chastised me for employing an
Igbo man and not a Yoruba man for the position; however I was unmoved. Hausas at that time were most favoured,
because they were in positions of power, and able to recruit other Hausas. So, the Yoruba people felt they were
lagging behind, and tended towards the same act as did the Igbos. But we must realise that public positions are
not to be treated as a private enterprise; the entire country has to be taken into consideration. Q: The pressure
to sway to the demands of ones own ethnic group in matters concerning positions of power, I imagine, can be overwhelming;
even when one is poised to do the right thing…. I was confronted
with this dilemma when some members of my staff would bring people to me; the Igbo brought Igbo applicants, while
the Yoruba brought Yoruba applicants. And I’d say to them: “Okay; I shall employ your candidate without an interview,
but on one condition. You must first of all sign that you are responsible for making sure that your protégé
does his or her job excellently; if not, I shall penalise you, and also inform management that you knowingly brought
in an unqualified employee.” (Pauses) And do you think anyone agreed to take on such a responsibility? Of course,
I stopped receiving such pressures. So, it is one of those problems that we really cannot isolate from the larger
problem of corruption. Q: So you seem
to be pushing the Nigerian polity to reach deeper, find even more creative ways to stay on the right course… Exactly! Again,
we often know the answers to our problems, though we may not have the political will to pursue them. Ethnic tendencies
are as widespread as corruption. We must realise that it is only with our own personal business that we can do
whatever we like; however, government business belongs to all. We need to value, indeed, treasure government facilities.
We are all tax- payers; we should never destroy public properties, nor appropriate them, neither should we keep
sealed lips when we observe that they are being tampered with. We need to develop a national orientation. At this
point, what we have is a joke… Q: Professor…how
do we develop this “national orientation?” Through the media
-- radio, television, and newspapers -- it should be brought to the attention of our people that we have a need
for a dynamic national orientation programme. Who is a true Nigerian? Does s/he take and give bribes, destroy public
properties, or rather is cultured and disciplined and his or her brother’s keeper? If I need medical attention
in a hospital, can I be sure to get it even if I am not from the doctor’s so-called tribe? We’ve got to get back
to the fundamentals; decency, high moral expectations, respect for our fellow beings…we have to get back to that... Q: You were a
former Education Minister from 1990-1993. The educational sector is in a state of steady decline, many might say,
in a state of crisis; what your opinion? There are many facets to education in Q: You were clearly
being polite when you mentioned that a former government’s mantra was “that there wasn’t enough money to sustain
UPE.” You are very perceptive (Laughter). Of course,
there was enough money; but like every thing else we have destroyed in this country, education from the onset suffered
at the hands of those that did not fully value its worth. Almost immediately, different regions began to sramble
for the meagre funds allocated to the educational sector. Some regions would claim that since region ‘A’ was receiving
N100, they should receive a similar or even double the amount, because they did not have as many schools as region
“A”. Then if they were given N100 or even N200, only half of it would be used for the actual building of classrooms,
sometimes nothing!
The administrations of those regions
diligently executing their contracts would become discouraged, because it was evident that other regions were not
using the funds judiciously, and getting away with it. That was the beginning of our problems. Q: Where, sir,
can we find the where-with-all to turn things around? We have been blessed
by providence with enthusiasm for and about education, and this enthusiasm can propel one to the vanguard…to become
the best example in the world. Because once the interest to excel is there… creativity and innovation often follow.
Unfortunately, our enthusiasm is not matched by necessary financial support cum implementation of policies that
would bring about desired results. It is here, that the problem lies. Q: Certain observers
believe that building more universities is a catastrophic mistake. Clearly, when all is said and done “more sub-standard
schools can only produce even more poorly educated students.” What is your assertion? I agree. When you
look back over 45 years since (Interrupting):
That seems like a rational strategy… Of course, many
people criticised me for that insisting that You have outlined
many of the ills that ail the educational sector. What is your prescription for this “sick patient?” Where do we
go from here? You see, it’s simpler
and,
Prof. Babatunde Fafunwa at an event
In spite of that,
however, the most important historical statement for the development of education is the introduction of the Universal
Basic Education, UBE. This is where this present government can make an indelible mark in the history of Now, how well
will such a noble initiative be implemented? Well, that is the
challenge! But if this is the only thing the present administration is successful in doing, it would earn it the
eternal praise of this country as one of the best things that ever happened to Nigeria. What else needs
to be in place to make UBE a success? Manpower; manpower
is key...we have to focus on its development, because if we don’t, the programme cannot succeed. Do we have enough
teachers? If we don’t, then how quickly can we train them? Though I don’t know the full concept, I believe that
we cannot establish this noble idea without the teachers. The teachers are always needed. Professor, you
have recently written extensively about the inconsistencies in our educational system. One particular sore point
for you seems to be the manner in which the 6-3-3-4 system was implemented. Can you further develop your thesis? Certainly! You see,
there are always people who like to push their own views and impose their will on others. If they have fought a
battle and lost, they don’t give up, even when it is obvious that the policy is watery. I wrote some very strong
articles on the re-introduction of the sixth form because we had to do away with that idea to put the ‘6-3-3-4’
system in place. So, when 20 or more years later, attempts are begun to once again re-introduce it, something must
be psychologically wrong with us as a people. And without strong opposition, it will come to stay. So, the idea
of a sixth form at the secondary school level is done with. Because I was in
the eye of the storm as minister when all these were happening, I tried to make sure that the ‘sixth form’ or ‘A
Levels’ was offered in some private institutions. I noticed that certain old practices persisted – “when you get
your ‘A Levels’ through Higher School Certificate, HSC, you were given advanced admission.
If you applied for a four -year
course, you were allowed to complete the course in three years. So, this was till going on.” Q: The HSC seems
to have been a particularly sore point for you… Well that was because
suddenly, somebody woke up and wanted to disrupt the System and I felt
I had to make my voice heard. You see…the problem with the HSC -- which I fought against until I won -- was that
in the first instance, the British had imposed the sixth form on us with the idea that it was the most unique aspect
of education anywhere in the world. Many of the Commonwealth nations, in fact, had nothing like the sixth form.
Now, the British might introduce, but not actually impose, this structure on us -- they are not even imposing it
on us; we are the ones imposing it on ourselves. And what used to happen in the secondary schools was that, in
the usual six year course, five and six year programmes were called leadership training years – the period during
which the prefects, houses, sports, etc. were groomed. With the imposition of the sixth form, a number of 5th
formers lost the chance for leadership skill set grooming. And I even said, ‘look, if you must have your British
Aberration of sixth form, just take fifth form away from the school, because the teachers in the schools will prefer
to teach and focus their energies on sixth form students at the expense of the fifth formers. After all it’s more
prestigious to say, ‘I’m teaching sixth form’ than to say, ‘I’m teaching fifth form.’ So, the ones that should
be taught were now being neglected… You were also
vocal about the imposition of foreign languages on the schools by a former dictatorship… Abacha, during his
own time, because the British and American governments considered him a pariah leader, decided to team up with
the French; he decided that French would become a second language in Nigeria. I mean, this is a crazy idea to begin
with…to the extent that teachers were being prepared for this when we didn’t even have enough teachers to teach
our own local languages – Hausa, Igbo and Yoruba. So you see, we sadly misdirect ourselves, and we neglect to question
government policies. And those who should speak up are not speaking up, not only in education, but in law, in medicine,
name the discipline where things are not in disarray. We should speak up. We have numerous seasoned professionals
in the country, and we must develop this spirit of confronting issues and helping the government; otherwise we
are not ready to turn around the nation for good. The government cannot carry everything on its head without the
help of its citizens; collaborating its efforts, or whatever. We must develop this spirit, otherwise we will become
a banana republic and Nigeria deserves better than that. I believe Nigerians
know what their problems are, know even the solutions to their problems; but they don’t have the political will
to tackle it. You
have alluded to the fact that experts in the educational sector believe that the ‘6-3-3-4’ system is a good idea
that has not been implemented correctly. How, in your expert opinion, should it operate? Again, we need to
educate the Nigerian public on this. Our original design was that after the first three years of
Prof. Babatunde Fafunwa at an event
To borrow a term
you used earlier: “we are enthusiastic about having great things, about competing with the rest of the world, but
we are not ready to make that sacrifice which will make that happen…” Precisely! Another
analogy is this: NEPA, as an example, has not lived up to its expectation. But do we then scrap efforts at producing
electricity?
Or since NITEL is not performing,
the solution would be to disconnect all telephone lines... We have to be realistic, and face the problem. Therefore,
about the ‘6-3-3-4’ system; I used to tell my American and Nigerian colleagues that the Americans, with their ‘6-3-3-4’
educational system, landed on the moon. The British with its ‘most unique sixth form’ did not; although, it is
true that they developed the powerful telescopes to watch the Americans land… The difference
between being spectators versus achievers and innovators…. Exactly! I always
make it clear that the British have a right to fashion their own education system, and if it’s the sixth form
BNW Advocates' Island
A recent study
out of Eastern Nigeria that received national attention, highlighted the fact that male students from that part
of the country were dropping out of the schools, and opting to become ‘traders’ instead…eroding much the educational
gains in the country. What is to be done? From what is happening,
I’m sorry to say, our brothers from the East that were really making all kinds of strides in education are the
ones who have now relaxed. Because their children find it difficult to get jobs at the national level when they
finish school they feel that they might as well set up their own jobs, and afterwards, marry a woman with a Ph.D.
I remember giving a lecture as the Education Minister when that thinking was just developing, and I discovered
that in a College of Education at Awka most of the audience were women. I asked: “where are the men?” The women
made up about 80 percent of that gathering; there were only a very few men. And I said to them: ‘if you think that
a spare parts dealer will make a lot of money, and then marry a woman with a Ph.D., that can is only be a temporary
situation; because educated men with PhDs. from elsewhere will come and marry off your Ph.D. ladies. In other words,
the North is steadily achieving while the East is really lagging behind, and we are hoping that educational leaders
will really address this, and try to bring those students back into the classrooms. In the case of the West, it
does not matter whether we get jobs or not after graduation, we continue to forge ahead; we keep going ahead. In
other words, the enthusiasm of last century remains in the west. For the sake of every Nigerian child, we applaud
this UBE; it’s now compulsory for the child to stay in school for, at least, seven years. This is why I say
this is probably the best contribution that the administration will make to Nigeria because every child up to 15
years must be in school. If a child is found wandering about, there should be welfare officers who will pick up
him or her, and charge the parents with criminal abuse. With that, there should be no child beggars or hawkers
on the streets. This will be the kind of evidence we look out for in each state to convince us that the government
means business. And I do hope that
the authorities in charge of this programme will work towards this to make it effective. In other countries, not
just the police, but certain welfare officers whose job it is in each city, town and locality, pick up wandering
children and charge their guardians for their delinquency. Q: A number of private universities have come on stream
in the last few years. How does this affect the status of state-funded universities? What suggestions do you have
for strengthening state and federal universities? I expect that the establishment of private universities
will serve as a healthy challenge to federal and state universities. In the USA, there is no federal university,
but practically every state has one or more state universities and there are thousands of private universities
owned by individuals, religious bodies, societies and other groups across the country. As early as the 1960’s
I proposed that our new universities should seek ways and means of generating their own income to supplement Government
subvention. I was told that we were academics, not businessmen and women. I reminded my colleagues
that the Americans were managing funding schemes without
compromising their academic status. Let our state and federal universities ask the Americans how to
do it successfully. It reminds me of the story of the Black woman President of my undergraduate College in
the USA. A white man shared a train compartment with her in a Pullman section. The man tried to downsize
her (it seemed) by saying, “Aunty, I bet you can cook”! Dr. Mary McLeod Bethune asked the white man which of her sisters’ sons he was. But before
the man could recover from the embarrassing question, Mrs. Bethune answered his original question, saying, “Yes,
I can cook and be President of a (university) college too.” Let
me steer the conversation in the direction of the plight of women in Nigeria: Nigeria is witnessing an upsurge
in the visibility of women in public life. Some applaud this development as a long overdue empowerment of women.
Others point out that women still face many economic, political and especially educational obstacles. Do you share
this opinion? I’ve always been
an admirer of our Nigerian women. In the past, they struggled to contribute money and send their children to school,
even when the men weren’t fully convinced that education was worth investing in, and therefore refused to pay school
fees. These women were mostly traders, and illiterate. My own mother was one of them; although, I must say, my
father struggled as well. But in all fairness,
Nigerian women are unique in many ways. Illiterate women saw the need for education even before their literate
husbands; at least, that was very prevalent in the western part of the country. To some extent,
that could also apply to the East. The North faced a different kind of situation, because there was, and still
is, the dominance of Islamic education. But we are trying to prove to them that they can have western education
and Islamic studies simultaneously, because a combination of the two will make them better citizens. And my conception
of this might appear somewhat radical -- rather than insist on children going to school, we’ll take school to them.
And I would have liked to sit down with women in the North, arrange with them to keep their children for, say,
three or four days in the week – for help on the farm, or in the market -- and then, reserve the fifth day for
their schooling. I began working on a proposal which I was very enthusiastic about. Unfortunately, it was towards
the end of my term as Minister, but some of my officials were already against it. It was my hope that
after a few successful weeks or months, the parents would surrender even more days for teaching their children.
I believe that we have to go beyond conventional thinking in order to address our problems, monumental as they
are. In other words, to make an impact, you must think beyond what is predictable. If you take one Saturday every
month to teach adults and leave them to do whatever they want with the remaining three Saturdays, you never can
tell how much you’d achieve in a year. Nigerian women have
made certain progress; but when you realise how many important positions women hold in the United Kingdom and in
the U.S., you know Nigeria could do better. Women have made a lot of progress, be it in the Police, Immigration,
Civil Service, the Private sector. But I mean to say that I don’t see why we cannot have up to 30-35 women representatives
as well as in our National Assembly. There are some African countries that have gone further than this, and I think
Nigerian women deserve a lot more. Nigeria imports
most of her food. What suggestions do you have to rejuvenate the agricultural sector? Everyone must participate
in an effort to grow more food – fruits, vegetables etc. We should encourage everybody to plant something in his
backyard, no matter how small. I have in my compound, more than six different crops. I have mango trees, banana,
plantain, African apple trees; I’ve also planted lemon trees. So, if everybody grows some yam, maize, rice, cassava,
beans; that’s something. We have to realise that Nigeria is basically an agricultural nation. During the tenure
of one of the military leaders, I suggested that we should isolate two types of foodstuff and make sure they were
available at all times. For instance, garri and rice; that is, no matter how poor one was, one could afford these
two food items, because they would always be in abundant supply. But, again, what education is the government giving
our people on this? Sooner or later, garri will disappear from the poor man’s table, and nobody is doing anything
about it. So, as I said from the beginning, we have problems, we know the answers, but we don’t have the political
will to tackle our problems. We must have the political will. Apart from the
oil and banking sectors, Nigeria’s economy is often described as prostate. What can be done? Even though I am
not an economist, when our banks are making billions of naira in profits, and we have mass unemployment, then something
is seriously wrong. The banks are in possession of all these monies; the manufacturers are crying day and night
that we are not supporting them enough, we are not creating jobs. The government in most countries is the least
employer of labour; but here, it is the greatest employer of labour. And if graduates look for jobs, and don’t
find any, then end up in the civil service, they feel they have failed. But really, the manufacturing sector needs
support from loan facilities to help them expand and employ more people. This is why you
have a mass unemployment rate in the country. Graduates fresh out of school cannot access loan facilities and cannot
even dream of creating employment. When I was teaching at the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, many years ago, I
used to tell my graduating class that I hope to see some of them in Dugbe market and Onitsha market where the traders
are making so much money and are not even literate. Anyway, I’m worried about the rate of unemployment, and the
fat profits that the banks are making; the two just don’t go together. Professor, thank
you for your thought provoking responses. Do you have any parting thoughts on the Nigerian State? I think, basically, that I believe in a Nigerian
Federalist State; I was one of a group of young men who spoke in 1960, a member of the 10-man group Citizens committee
for Independence in charge of the memorandum for the constitutional conference in London. We heard later that this
impelled the move for federalism in Nigeria. At the time, we proposed to have 23 states and I wish we had stopped
at that number. Today, we have 36 states and people are still clamouring for more. However, I prefer
that we go the American way. We know that And the sources
of income are such that no administration at the centre can penalise a disadvantaged state. Otherwise, that state
can go to court to challenge the government at the centre. In other words, if any state is not doing well, the
people will tend to speak up, and perhaps call for someone’s resignation. This is what we don’t have in this country,
unfortunately. But really, what we should have is a true federation; with independent federating units, and not
states going ‘cap-in-hand’ to the central government all the time. People have asked whether it is still necessary to have the Soyinka/Enahoro Conference. My feeling is that, as Nigerians, they have a right to make their own contribution to the national situation. And if they come out with something that we need, in addition to the solutions of the National Confab, one hopes that the government will be fair enough to implement whatever recommendations they offer; that’s very important. Otherwise, a succeeding government will just throw such recommendations under the carpet depriving us of the change we need and are all clamouring for.
Disclaimer: The views expressed in the interview are not necessarily those of the Chinua Achebe Foundation.
The Chinua Achebe Foundation, an intellectual and cultural organization, believes in the right of every Nigerian
to express their opinion. Chinua Achebe Foundation Interview Series: Professor Babatunde (Babs) Fafunwa in Conversation with Toluwanimi Olujimi and Professor Okey Ndibe
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